Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

Don't shoot the messenger
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 03:13 PM GMT del 06 Dicembre 2009 +8
Monday, December 7, marks the opening of the U.N. Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen, Denmark. At that meeting, the leaders of the world will gather to negotiate an agreement to replace the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. The new agreement will be the world's road map for dealing with climate change, and the stakes are huge. It is fitting that the conference begins on the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, for the Copenhagen conference is sure to be an epic political battle. Indeed, the battle has already been underway for several weeks, with most of the action centering on a PR assault launched by the anti-CO2 regulation forces that sensationalized the contents of the hacked emails from the University of East Anglia. The Wall Street Journal has long been at the forefront of the battle to discredit the science of climate change and the scientists involved, and last week they launched a major offensive, publishing multiple opinion pieces. I'll critique one of these, a December 1 editorial by Bret Stephens which accuses climate scientists of having a vested interest in promoting alarmist views of the climate in order to get research funding. "All of them have been on the receiving end of climate change-related funding, so all of them must believe in the reality (and catastrophic imminence) of global warming just as a priest must believe in the existence of God", Stephens wrote.

Money
It's always wise to follow the money when analyzing the motivations of people. However, Ph.D. atmospheric scientists are less motivated by money than, say, the typical reader of the Wall Street Journal. I am an example of that. Nobody owns more shares of Wunderground.com than I do, yet here I am criticizing the Wall Street Journal and some of the richest and most powerful corporations on the planet--hardly the sort of action that will generate more revenue for my company. Our top climate scientists are some of the most brilliant people on the planet. They could have easily made fortunes on Wall Street devising intricate schemes to hawk sub-prime mortgages or leverage obscure derivatives. Yet these people chose climate science as a career, out of a genuine curiosity about how the world works and desire to help find the truth of whether human-caused climate change poses a significant threat to humanity. The charges that these scientists are exaggerating the danger of human-caused global warming to get more funding is a personal attack on their integrity--a typical politician's ploy to avoid talking about the issues, when one has no valid arguments to bolster one's position. In my 29 years in the weather business, I've had the honor of working with many of the world's top weather and climate scientists. I can personally vouch for their integrity and commitment to pursue the scientific truth, no matter what that truth turns out to be. These are honest, incredibly hard-working public servants who are enduring a punishing assault on their integrity because they are the bearers of bad news. The Earth has plenty of pressing problems requiring the services of brilliant scientists; these public servants will always have a job, and have no need to exaggerate dangers or invent new threats in order to get more research funding. If one reads through the entire set of 3,000 emails hacked from the University of East Anglia--not just the choice few lines excerpted from chosen emails, and then spun by the anti-CO2 regulation lobby to make the scientists look bad--you will see that these scientists are the good guys. Never once is there a mention of fabricating data or fudging results to try to get more research funding. There is no conspiring to perpetate the massive "hoax" of human-caused global warming they have been accused of. Rather, we see a picture of some very smart, hardworking, and very human and imperfect scientists that are doing their best to learn the truth, and pass that information on to the rest of us. You don't get ahead in scince by fudging the data. It's publish or perish. While the peer-review system of publication is not perfect, it generally does an excellent job of rewarding those scientists who seek to publish the truth, and rejects those who do not. Published papers that turn out to be false will, in time, crumble under the weight of subsequent studies that do uncover the truth. Smart scientists tend to have big egos and hate being wrong, so there is additional motivation to publish truthful studies that will withstand the test of time and be validated by subsequent research.

Alarmism
Mr. Stephens uses the words "alarm" or "alarmist" four times in the editorial, and he is clearly trying to provoke an emotional reaction against those Chicken Littles guilty of raising the alarm. Speaking as an atmospheric scientist, I can tell you from long experience that we are not the wild-eyed, alarmist lot that the Wall Street Journal makes us out to be. This makes for some very dull parties (if you're not excited about discussing quasi-geostrophic theory), when we get together for a big bash. Very little alarming behavior takes place. (In fact, after I dragged my wife to three straight devastatingly dull departmental Christmas parties while I was in graduate school, she forbade me from ever requiring her to go to another.) Atmospheric scientists are not an alarmist lot--put us in quiet room with a window and give us a computer and pile of data to analyze, and we'll be as happy as a clam at high tide. The portrayal of climate scientists as alarmist, money-grubbing, dishonest hucksters out to destroy the economy to further their own selfish desires for money or fame is a common theme in climate change denial attacks, and is a very narrow-minded and ignorant one. It's more convenient to shoot the messenger than to acknowledge the truth of the bad news they're bringing.

Toleration of false alarms
It is possible that the alarms climate scientists are raising over climate change will turn out to be false. Environmental scientists have in the past issued false alarms over environmental problems that did not materialize as expected. However, we should expect and tolerate some degree of false alarms, given the uncertainty in forecasting these events. If our scientists never issue a false alarm, then the tolerance for issuing alarms is not correct. Would you criticize the National Weather Service for issuing a tornado warning when a possible tornado signature is spotted on Doppler radar, since less than half of these signatures result in in an actual tornado touchdown? Or the National Hurricane Center for issuing a hurricane warning, since only 25% of the warned coast receives hurricane-force winds, on average? No, some degree of false alarms must be tolerated. Our weather forecasters are dedicated public servants, doing their job of warning the public when their best scientific judgment indicates that there might be a significant threat. It is no different with our climate scientists. They are predicting that there is a greater than 90% chance that most of the observed global warming is due to human causes. Climate scientists are extremely concerned about what their scientific results are saying, and are doing their utmost to warn a public resistant to acknowledging the danger. This resistance runs very deep among conservatives. A 2008 Pew Center poll found that 75% of Democrats with a college education believed that humans were responsible for global warming, while only 19% of college educated Republicans believed that. Conservatives' core belief that a capitalist, free market economy with limited regulation is the best economic system in the world is challenged by acknowledging that human-caused global warming is real and a threat. I greatly respect conservatives who can objectively evaluate the validity of global warming science while holding that core belief, for it is difficult to accept that the best economic system in the world could spawn such a self-destructive force. But as I detailed in a post last week, corporations, by law, exist to make a profit. If scientific research shows that a corporation's products may be harmful to the public health, it the obligation of the company to its shareholders to employ whatever legal means possible to cast doubt on this science, in order to protect profits. The profits of the richest and most powerful industry the planet has ever seen--the fossil fuel industry--are currently so threatened. Thus, we are being subject to history's greatest campaign to deny science, and it is keeping us from much-needed action to curb the danger. These voices are telling us what we want to hear--the danger is not real, the scientists are corrupt and are falsifying their data, the uncertainties are great, and that we cannot afford to change. But the laws of physics don't care about ideology or free market economies or election cycles. The overwhelming majority of our top climate scientists are saying that the laws of physics dictate that massive amounts of greenhouse gases, when added to the atmosphere, will cause warming that will be very damaging to civilization. If we are to limit that damage, we must act soon, for the approaching storm will grow ever stronger the longer we wait. Don't shoot the messengers-- they are on your side.

Other posts in this series
Embattled UK climate scientist steps down
The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy
Is more CO2 beneficial for Earth's ecosystems?

Next post
My timing of my next post will depend upon the weather.

Our Climate Change expert, Dr. Ricky Rood, is in Copenhagen for this week's crucial COP15 climate change treaty negotiations. Be sure to tune into his blog for updates on the talks. Wunderground has provided financial support for several University of Michigan students to attend the talks, and I may be featuring portions of their blogs over the coming weeks.

Jeff Masters
Categories: Climate Change
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1151. mikatnight 02:36 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Ok, Mike's quote of the day (and then I'm off to practice what I preach):

The human race has no "finish line" (except in Finland).
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1153. presslord 02:37 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
What does "...let's ask Al Gore about that..." mean?
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1154. CaneWarning 02:37 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
1149. That's why I put him on iggy.
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1155. hurricanejunky 02:38 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting pearlandaggie:
off-topic, but does anyone know of a website where one can find their local rainfall totals vs. average numbers? i often hear the rainfall totals compared to the historical average (usually in times of drought but not in wet times), but it's really hard to find those numbers on the local NWS website...


This is an interesting site:
Link
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1157. hurricanejunky 02:40 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting CaneWarning:
1149. That's why I put him on iggy.


I am not trying to take sides here but I thought JFlorida's reply to you was actually well researched proof of the median salaries of the scientists who are being accused of being "greedy" or in it for the money. Is there something else to it?
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1159. pearlandaggie 02:41 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
1155. cool...thanks!

by the way, i found some similar to what i was looking for on my local weather page...finally! LOL
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1160. presslord 02:42 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Gore owns a TV network, a venture capital firm, a bunch of Google stock...and has made a movie and writtren books....all private, free market pursuits...
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1161. Ossqss 02:43 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Anyone evaluated this item? The summary analysis that is :)

Link
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1162. pearlandaggie 02:47 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
1158. thanks!
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1163. PensacolaDoug 02:49 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
JB this morning.

Tuesday 7:30 a.m.
Earth temp spike going full blast!

The El Nino is forcing a spike in the Earth's temps, and we had a reading of .5C above normal for November, up from .28 in October. However, keep in mind... this was expected and still shows overall a leveling off from peaks in the previous El Ninos.

This is trouble for both sides of the AGW argument. First of all, it's not trouble for me, since posts a few months ago documented we would spike, but certainly any agenda-driven person that thinks the Earth is warming can say, see I told you.

To which I reply, not so fast my friend, because as soon as this collapses so will the temp and the coming La Nina response within the next three years may take us to a running three-year mean near normal... and that is just the start of it. Given what should happen in the longer term, with reversing AMO and the sun asleep... each peak should be lower and a classic one step forward, two steps back should evolve this next decade, so I am putting my money where my mouth is, making the forecast here for you, not just throwing stones at people who can't see anything but warm.

In any case, up it goes, a very, very warm November and so in this football game of climate, people screaming warm have every right to cheer the warmth.

We shall see whose game plan wins.

Not that it matters. Since we now have the government (EPA) ruling by decree, it really doesn't. Too bad all this is going on, it ruins my enjoyment of the weather.

Ciao for now. ****


TUESDAY 7 a.m.:

FROM THE EURO COLUMN

In case you don't look up there, I wanted you to see what I am saying to my two or three euro readers.


U.S. MODEL ENGULFING EUROPE IN SNOW NEXT 15 DAYS.

I have been telling people in the States now for a couple of weeks that a "December to remember" is on the way, and over here we have the best setup for a widespread white Christmas in many a year. Well, today I will try, on our free site at accuweather.com, to cut a video showing what is the most widespread snowcover I have ever seen a model forecast as fully all of Europe is forecasted to be covered in snow by the 23rd!

Now this is an extreme event, something out of the Victorian era, and we should take it with a grain of salt. In fact, it's a bit early for my liking, as I felt it would be during the middle and late parts of winter when we would see this, hence the big debate in the fall with Hadley over the warm winter that we didn't see for Europe, but up until recently, they were. In fact, the winter of 2002-2003 looks better to me as a base forecast, but that is just the base. It doesn't mean it can't be a bit colder. Here in the States, it is colder earlier also than that winter which had a rather mild December. This December will be no such thing.

In any case, the free site hit I will do as my vblog today will give a double shot of arctic love to my friends across the pond... though in a couple of weeks that shoreline may have a lot of snow on it.

Again, this is the kind of thing I expected to see this winter... winter "backing in" from the northeast, but I am a bit skeptical because it is early. Then again, if the theories on sunspot cycles are right, and by 2030 we are returning to the time of Dickens and Victoria, might as well start now. The sooner the better with the agenda-driven people meeting to decide the fate of the planet.

Pass the Caviar please.

Ciao for now.
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1164. hurricanejunky 02:50 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting presslord:
Gore owns a TV network, a venture capital firm, a bunch of Google stock...and has made a movie and writtren books....all private, free market pursuits...


Exactly...so what's the problem with Al Gore? I don't get the raging obsession that people have with him. I think it all boils down to politics, which is sad. It's fine if you don't like his politics but I don't see why the big outrage about his environmental work. The man is trying to champion a very worthy cause. He has been for over 30 years now. The message I get from Al Gore is he's trying to make the world a better place to live and preserve it for future generations. I think that's what we all should be striving for isn't it?
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1165. presslord 02:52 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Exactly...so what's the problem with Al Gore? I don't get the raging obsession that people have with him. I think it all boils down to politics, which is sad. It's fine if you don't like his politics but I don't see why the big outrage about his environmental work. The man is trying to champion a very worth cause. He has been for over 30 years now. The message I get from Al Gore is he's trying to make the world a better place to live and preserve it for future generations. I think that's what we all should be striving for isn't it?


it seems that the free marketplace of goods, services and ideas is only a good thing if it's goods, services, and ideas with which the flat Earthers agree...
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1166. CaneWarning 02:53 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting hurricanejunky:


I am not trying to take sides here but I thought JFlorida's reply to you was actually well researched proof of the median salaries of the scientists who are being accused of being "greedy" or in it for the money. Is there something else to it?


It wasn't a response to me. I'm just tired of him criticizing everyone on here, including me. Also, the post he was responding to had nothing to do with the salaries. Judging from the several PM's I've gotten, I'm not the only person who's put him on ignore.
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1167. presslord 02:59 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
look...I'm no Gore fan...I think he's whiny, petulant and unctious, as a matter of fact...but he's entitled to express his view...and get paid for it if he can...and he's entitled to profit from investing his capital if he's right....
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1168. presslord 03:02 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
furthermoire...Gore, et al, advocating for legislation favorable to their investments is no different from any other industry doing the same thing...as a matter of fact, as Dr. Masters notes repeatedly, corporate officers BETTER do that...or we will find ourselves in a world of crap....
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1169. billsfaninsofla 03:06 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting presslord:
look...I'm no Gore fan...I think he's whiny, petulant and unctious, as a matter of fact... but he's entitled to express his view...and get paid for it if he can...and he's entitled to profit from investing his capital if he's right....


That hits the nail on the head. At least part of the comment.
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1170. toontown 03:08 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
A weather update from the great white north.
At 52N, 107W, current El Nino conditions are minus 33 C (minus 41 C with wind chill). We are 31 F below averages for this time of year. Burr!
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1171. hophead 03:10 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
At the end of the day, what is really at stake here, what are the bigger hit at home issues. As I see it, whether man-influenced or a natural cycles, lets agree that there are periods of warming AND cooling. The earth is a system in constant flux, ice melts, oceans adsorb CO2, earth warms -

The GW crowd thinks the earth can't recover, I'm on the fence with thate.

Going back to my first point - what happens when the earth warms. Well, having lived in AK, I've seen the effects. Ice melts, tundra gets destroyed. OK, so what! Well, a previous poster indicated that man has always had the best ability to adapt. I think this is where I disagree. We as a species can adapt but as an economy are in trouble.

If farming areas shift northword to areas that are not developed for farming, where will we get food? I realize this is exaggeration but stay with me a sec. Iowa grows lots of corn, if upper Minnesota becomes more suited to corn production can they "adapt" and convert to a corn belt? If oceans rise, states and locals cannot adapt to the financial impact of coastal damamge when seawalls are under water and then what happens when all this protection infrastructure is underwater and the CAT1+ rolls through.

We, as Americans, love to debate to stall from doing anything but continuing to debate some more. At the end, I think we are ignoring the end results and that is where our efforts for national sustainabiltiy should be focused.

If you study the AK Native Settlement Act, a nomadic society was forced to stay put which eventually degraded their culture to that of public welfare. Our own gov't structure is going to drive us into this same dilema as result of inabiltiy to economically adapt to CC (natural or otherwise)

Long winded...I'm out.
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1172. Bordonaro 03:11 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
The December 9-10TH, 2009 Storm will be one that is remembered!!



STORM SUMMARY NUMBER 04 FOR ROCKIES AND PLAINS WINTER STORM
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
900 AM CST TUE DEC 08 2009

...A STRONG AND QUICK-MOVING LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM IS EXPECTED TO
BRING WIDESPREAD SIGNIFICANT WEATHER ACROSS THE EASTERN TWO-THIRDS
OF THE COUNTRY THROUGH EARLY THURSDAY...

BLIZZARD WARNINGS ARE IN EFFECT FOR HIGHER ELEVATIONS OF THE FOUR
CORNERS REGION...AS WELL AS PARTS OF SOUTHERN MINNESOTA AND
NORTHEASTERN IOWA.

WINTER STORM WARNINGS AND WINTER WEATHER ADVISORIES COVER AN
EXTENSIVE AREA FROM THE CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN ROCKIES NORTHEASTWARD
INTO THE GREAT LAKES. IN ADDITION...WINTER STORM WATCHES AND
WINTER WEATHER ADVISORIES ARE IN EFFECT FROM THE CENTRAL
APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS NORTHWARD INTO PARTS OF NEW ENGLAND.

HIGH WIND WARNINGS ARE IN EFFECT FOR EASTERN NEW MEXICO AND FAR
WESTERN TEXAS. HIGH WIND WATCHES ARE IN EFFECT FROM PARTS OF THE
OHIO RIVER VALLEY INTO WESTERN NEW YORK.

FOR A DETAILED GRAPHICAL DEPICTION OF THE LATEST
WATCHES...WARNINGS AND ADVISORIES...PLEASE SEE WWW.WEATHER.GOV

AT 800 AM CST...A 980 MB...28.94 INCH...LOW PRESSURE CENTER WAS
MOVING EASTWARD ACROSS CENTRAL COLORADO. NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE
DOPPLER RADARS AND SURFACE OBSERVATIONS INDICATED WIDESPREAD
PRECIPITATION FROM THE SOUTHEASTERN U.S. NORTHWARD INTO THE GREAT
LAKES...AS WELL AS FROM EASTERN TEXAS NORTHWARD INTO THE NORTHERN
PLAINS. PRECIPITATION WAS IN THE FORM OF LIGHT TO MODERATE SNOW IN
THE MIDWEST AND THE GREAT LAKES...AS WELL AS FROM KANSAS
NORTHWARD. LOCALLY HEAVY SNOW WAS STILL LINGERING IN THE HIGHER
ELEVATIONS OF COLORADO AND NEW MEXICO WHERE SOME OF THE SNOW HAD
BEGUN TO TAPER OFF FOLLOWING THE PASSAGE OF A COLD FRONT.


...SELECTED STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL IN INCHES FROM 700 PM CST SUN DEC
06 THROUGH 900 AM CST TUE DEC 08...

...ARIZONA...
FLAGSTAFF 11.6
WILLIAMS 8.0
BELLEMONT 7.2
GRAND CANYON ARPT 3.0

...COLORADO...
DELTA 10.2

...UTAH...
VERDURE 8 WNW 25.0

...SELECTED STORM TOTAL RAINFALL IN INCHES FROM 700 PM CST SUN DEC
06 THROUGH 900 AM CST TUE DEC 08...

...ARIZONA...
PRESCOTT/ERNEST A LOVE FIELD AP 1.37
GRAND CANYON NATIONAL PARK 1.19

...LOUISIANA...
NEW IBERIA/ACADIANA 6.71
BATON ROUGE/RYAN MUNI ARPT 4.79
NEW ORLEANS/MOISANT 3.73
SLIDELL 3.47
LAFAYETTE RGNL ARPT 2.29
LAKE CHARLES MUNI ARPT 1.76

...MISSISSIPPI...
HATTIESBURG/LAUREL 1.67
NATCHEZ/HARDY 1.46
GULFPORT-BILOXI 1.27
HATTIESBURG/CHAIN MUNI ARPT 1.21
KEESLER AFB/BILOXI 1.12

...TEXAS...
GALVESTON/SCHOLES 1.42
BEAUMONT/PORT ARTHUR 1.04

...SELECTED PEAK WIND GUSTS IN MILES PER HOUR EARLIER IN THE
EVENT...

...NEW MEXICO...
ORGAN 91

...SELECTED STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL IN INCHES WHERE THE EVENT HAS
ENDED...

...CALIFORNIA...
ALPINE MEADOWS 42.0
KIRKWOOD 40.0
CISCO 5 ENE 35.0
KINGVALE 1.3 WSW 29.0
HOMEWOOD 2 SE 27.0
PROSSER CREEK RESERVOIR 24.0
FAIR PLAY 2.8 ESE 17.0
PLACERVILLE 2.9 WNW 13.0
SOUTH LAKE TAHOE 13.0
VOLCANO 5.4 NE 12.5
GRASS VALLEY 5.5 ESE 11.5
COLFAX 3.1 SW 11.0
ALTA SIERRA 0.4 WSW 10.0
SUSANVILLE 3.2 SSW 8.8
LAKE OF THE PINES 8.0
NEVADA CITY 5.4 W 5.2
FOLSOM 3.4 ESE 0.5
CARMICHAEL 1.4 W 0.3
SACRAMENTO 8.0 NE 0.1

...NEVADA...
HEAVENLY VALLEY 24.0
MT ROSE SKI AREA 23.0
CARSON CITY 1.3 NW 18.0
DAYTON 1.7 SW 13.0
RENO 7.1 N 12.0
MINDEN 4.2 WSW 10.5
DAYTON 3.5 NNE 10.0
INDIAN HILLS 0.7 N 10.0
SUN VALLEY 0.9 N 8.5
SPARKS 7.5 N 6.5
FALLON 0.8 WSW 6.3
FERNLEY 1.8 WNW 6.0

...SELECTED STORM TOTAL RAINFALL IN INCHES WHERE THE EVENT HAS
ENDED...

...CALIFORNIA...
LYTLE CREEK RAWS 2.77
HENSHAW DAM 2.36
JULIAN 2.36
POTRERO 2.27
SANTA YSABEL 2.17
LAKE CUYAMACA 2.09
PATERA RANCH 2.08
SANTA BARBARA MUNI ARPT 1.93
SAN DIEGO/BROWN FIELD 1.79


THE STORM SYSTEM IS FORECAST TO REMAIN POTENT AS IT MOVES INTO THE
CENTRAL PLAINS LATER TODAY. SNOWFALL AMOUNTS WILL RANGE FROM 1 TO
3 FEET ACROSS THE HIGHER ELEVATIONS OF COLORADO OVERNIGHT AND INTO
TUESDAY. ADDITIONAL RAINFALL OF UP TO ONE HALF INCH IS FORECAST IN
THE LOWER ELEVATIONS OF EASTERN ARIZONA AND SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO
WITH ISOLATED HIGHER AMOUNTS. THE PRECIPITATION WILL EXPAND INTO
THE PLAINS THROUGHOUT THE DAY TODAY WITH AN INCREASING CHANCE OF
HEAVIER RAIN AND THUNDERSTORMS IN THE LOWER MISSISSIPPI VALLEY AND
WIND BLOWN SNOW ACROSS THE UPPER MIDWEST.

THE NEXT STORM SUMMARY WILL BE ISSUED BY THE HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL
PREDICTION CENTER AT 300 PM CST. PLEASE REFER TO YOUR LOCAL
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE OFFICE FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS
EVENT.

KONG
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1173. presslord 03:15 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting billsfaninsofla:


That hits the nail on the head.


if you're going to quote me...please have the integrity to nuse the whole quote...
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1174. AwakeInMaryland 03:16 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Good morning, folks, just looking over some recent posts,

Mikatnight
, you're an upbeat breath of fresh air this morning, glad you're here. I read "Time Enough for Love"! And I've posted a quote from Heinlein here before, "Courtesy is the grease of the wheels of society." But I think I'm on "ignore"! Lot of hot air in here, isn't there? I think it's adding to climate change.

PearlandAggie
, always appreciate your gentle chiding and humor.
Chicklit, kudos on your gold stars in your classwork (read your entry last night). You're one of the blog Renaissance women, lovely and intelligent!
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1175. hurricanejunky 03:17 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting CaneWarning:


It wasn't a response to me. I'm just tired of him criticizing everyone on here, including me. Also, the post he was responding to had nothing to do with the salaries. Judging from the several PM's I've gotten, I'm not the only person who's put him on ignore.


I understand. Too bad you guys can't get along. Get some surge cola and sing Kumbaya like Tdude and I did. LOL!
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1176. Canesinlowplaces 03:17 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Press, the point is there is not anything necessarily legally wrong with what Al is doing (that I know of anyway). The point is these AGW people always say "follow the money". Well, I would say don't be naive. There's plenty who will profit, either through money or power, from the Cap and Trade type systems being proposed. It's just a matter of whose coffers are going to get filled up. Al owns interest in some of the carbon offset firms not to mention his book royalties. Again, not necessarily wrong, but if you can't see the underlying motive, well...I don't know what I can do for you. Like I say, I can see evidence to support both sides, but both sides have their motives and each is as greedy as the other - just a case of human nature that we must do our best to keep from getting out of hand.
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1177. billsfaninsofla 03:19 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting presslord:


if you're going to quote me...please have the integrity to nuse the whole quote...



There ya go Presslord, I modified it. So sorry if you were insulted.
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1178. CaneWarning 03:22 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting hurricanejunky:


I understand. Too bad you guys can't get along. Get some surge cola and sing Kumbaya like Tdude and I did. LOL!


I'm not too worried about it. We can't all get along. I come to the blog to read and learn from others, not be criticized for posting my opinion. Instead of arguing, I just figured I'd end it. :) By the way, I used to LOVE Surge cola. I wish they still sold it. I think its awful for your body tough.
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1179. presslord 03:22 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Thanks!!!
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1180. atmoaggie 03:23 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting JFLORIDA:


Really when natural indicators would suggest a cooling.

You need to back that up. If you believe it enough to say it as fact you need to say why.

Nope. I destroyed that yesterday with a peer-reviewed study, referenced and all. You don't think it an honest study, IYHO, because I posted it and without reading it. Good thing you didn't make any unsubstantiated statements or pretend to be an expert. And I see a lot of banter from yourself about going to journals and/or research. LOL!
Enough of the both-sides-of-your-mouth. Maybe try taking the blinders off if you want to actually discuss anything. Or if you think climate science has it all figured out then you should call for canceling all climate research funding and quit talking to all of us that think the earth is flat and sun circles our planet, again, IYHO.

Anyone else is capable of admitting that we do have some less than perfect measurements and that climate models have the capacity to be imperfect, as well. (Yes, I know you are about to say just this to save face...too late.)

Careful, or you'll become MichaelSTL reincarnate.

Could someone wu-mail us some dry? A good inversion, maybe? Tired of the rain.



And not done yet on the northshore...so far just street flooding to my knowledge.

Back L8R.
Member Since: Agosto 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12461
1181. TampaSpin 03:24 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting mikatnight:
Linky no-worky Tampa...Celine Dion does one - can't remember which - awesome though...
Quoting TampaSpin:
For those that was around last December i put together a mix of Christmas and Love song mix together to play on your computer..it now has 46 in the play Mix. If you have a favorite not there let me know.

Christmas and Love Song Mix from Tim


Christmas and Love Song Mix from Tim

I could not find anything wrong with the link....don't know!
Member Since: Settembre 2, 2007 Posts: 175 Comments: 19747
1182. AussieStorm 03:25 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Is it back to being civilized in here or should i come back in the morning?
Member Since: Settembre 30, 2007 Posts: 5 Comments: 13321
1183. AwakeInMaryland 03:25 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
hmmm...Has anyone noted that Al Gore was actually gracious and noble, considering that he had an election stolen from him (IMO)? It could have gone VERY badly for the country...well, it kinda' did (GW...say, the initials are the same as Global Warming -- yeah, I'm slow sometimes).

A lot of people would have been a LOT worse than merely whiny and petulant. He could have gone postal!

Anyway, he's gone on to bring attention to some life and death issues (not just of us, but the planet), whether you agree with him or like him or not -- which of course is your right!

And the movie was gorgeous. If you hate what Gore was saying, just turn down the sound and look at the fantastic film work.
Member Since: Agosto 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1185. NEwxguy 03:28 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
this storm is going to leave its mark on most of the US in one way or another,it's going to be one heck of a storm,it already left quite a mark on northern Arizona.
Member Since: Settembre 6, 2007 Posts: 816 Comments: 13094
1186. hurricanejunky 03:29 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting hophead:

The GW crowd thinks the earth can't recover, I'm on the fence with that.



I think most everyone thinks the Earth CAN recover, it's just a matter of doing some things to bring C02 levels back down to a safe threshold. The economics of 350 report I referenced earlier talks about recovery and the economic costs and benefits of it. Of course, dumping billions of metric tons of C02 into the atmosphere each year has no bearing on anything though.
Member Since: Agosto 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2875
1187. atmoaggie 03:29 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting JFLORIDA:


Your study removed temp sources that showed warming then stated it found no warming.

Please be honest. It also did not go though a full peer review process in the capacity you were using.

You need to reflect on the things you have said.

The study removed tree rings, and only tree rings, for all of the reasons we have rather thoroughly discussed here, and in the paper. Reasons we all agree on.
Member Since: Agosto 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12461
1188. CaneWarning 03:30 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting atmoaggie:

Nope. I destroyed that yesterday with a peer-reviewed study, referenced and all. You don't think it an honest study, IYHO, because I posted it and without reading it. Good thing you didn't make any unsubstantiated statements or pretend to be an expert. And I see a lot of banter from yourself about going to journals and/or research. LOL!
Enough of the both-sides-of-your-mouth. Maybe try taking the blinders off if you want to actually discuss anything. Or if you think climate science has it all figured out then you should call for canceling all climate research funding and quit talking to all of us that think the earth is flat and sun circles our planet, again, IYHO.

Anyone else is capable of admitting that we do have some less than perfect measurements and that climate models have the capacity to be imperfect, as well. (Yes, I know you are about to say just this to save face...too late.)

Careful, or you'll become MichaelSTL reincarnate.

Could someone wu-mail us some dry? A good inversion, maybe? Tired of the rain.



And not done yet on the northshore...so far just street flooding to my knowledge.

Back L8R.


Yeah, this is why I choose not to engage with this individual. Stay dry today atmo!
Member Since: Aprile 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1189. atmoaggie 03:30 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting AussieStorm:
Is it back to being civilized in here or should i come back in the morning?

It is back to being civilized starting now. Sorry I called him on that out loud, could have just iggyed him...

I will participate in the droll no more.
Member Since: Agosto 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12461
1190. AwakeInMaryland 03:30 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting AussieStorm:
Is it back to being civilized in here or should i come back in the morning?

Top o' the morning to you, Aussie.

Please stay. Few good role models in here sometimes.

Member Since: Agosto 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1191. AussieStorm 03:30 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting AussieStorm:
Is it back to being civilized in here or should i come back in the morning?

Still not civil enough for me in here. i'm going to bed. goodnight ya'll.
Play nice
Will be back in about 7 hrs or how ever long my back lets me sleep... Btw.. has anyone heard from Floodman?
Member Since: Settembre 30, 2007 Posts: 5 Comments: 13321
1196. niederwaldboy 03:34 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting JFLORIDA:


I am sorry you are leaving. But I feel a little more honesty here is needed.,


dude, crawl back under the rock where you came from. you are so DARN Rude...
Member Since: Gennaio 31, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 100
1197. AussieStorm 03:34 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
something to stoke the fires of AGW/CC

Last decade warmest on record

The first decade of the 21st century is set to be the warmest on record, the head of the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) said at UN climate talks.

"The decade 2000-2009 is very likely to be the warmest on record, warmer than the 1990s, which were in turn warmer than the 1980s," WMO secretary general Michel Jarraud said.

Mr Jarraud also said that the year 2009 would probably rank as the fifth warmest since 1850, the beginning of accurate instrumental climate records.

The year 2009 is expected to be Australia's third hottest year on record.

The December 7-18 climate summit in Copenhagen has brought together 193 countries to hammer out a climate deal to curb global warming and help poor countries cope with its consequences.

"We are in a warming trend, we have no doubt about that, but I would not make predictions for next year," he said when asked whether temperatures would continue to rise in the near term.

He said unexpected events such as a major volcano spewing tonnes of heat-filtering debris could lower temperatures.

Climate extremes, including devastating floods, severe droughts, snowstorms, heatwaves and cold snaps, were registered in many parts of the world, the UN weather organisation found.

Above-normal temperatures were recorded in all continents except North America, which experiences conditions slightly cooler than the 1961-1990 benchmark average.

Otherwise, there were marked regional variations, the WMO reported.

Extreme warm events were more frequent and intense in the southern part of Australia, southern Asia and South America.

The Arctic sea ice extent during the melt season was the third lowest ever, after the record year of 2007 and the runner-up year 2008.

China will have had the third-warmest year since 1951, and for some regions 2009 was the warmest ever.

The country suffered its worst drought in five decades, with water levels in parts of the Gan and Xiangjiang Rivers the lowest in 50 years.

In India, less-than-average rainfall during the monsoon season caused severe droughts in 40 per cent of districts, the WHO reported.

Most of these trends are consistent with long-term forecasts by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which predicts that average global temperatures will rise by up to 6.4 degrees Celsius unless greenhouse gas emissions are drastically reduced.

The WMO's global temperature analysis is based on three data sets, one of them coming from the Climate Research Unit of University of East Anglia in Britain.

East Anglia's climate science has been the focus of intense scrutiny in recent weeks after email exchanges among its scientists, stolen and posted on the internet, led to allegations that data was manipulated to exaggerate the threat of global warming.

Meanwhile, developing nations have demanded deeper emissions cuts from rich nations, particularly the United States, at UN climate talks in Denmark.

Negotiators are struggling to reach agreement on the depth of emissions cuts needed to slow the pace of climate change and are worried about the cost to their economies of switching from polluting fossil fuels to cleaner energy.

"We're off to a good start," Yvo de Boer, head of the UN Climate Change Secretariat, said of the December 7-18 talks.

He urged delegates to sort out technical details of an accord but said that the big issues such as emissions targets for rich nations and funds for the poor would have to wait for a December 18 summit that will be attended by over 100 world leaders.

Emission cuts offers from rich nations were far below what was needed, Dessima Williams of Grenada, chair of the 43-nation Alliance of Small Island States (AOSIS) said.

AOSIS wants emissions cut 45 per cent by 2020 from 1990 levels.

"Our 45 per cent remains on the table. Germany is at 40, the EU as a whole and some other countries are at 30. This is the time to escalate, to be ambitious," she said.

Washington, whose provisional offer to cut emissions by 17 per cent by 2020 from 2005 levels works out at just 3 per cent below 1990 levels, said on Monday it had legal authority to curb planet-warming emissions, a step delegates cautiously welcomed.

The US Environmental Protection Agency ruled that greenhouse gases endanger human health, allowing it to regulate them without legislation from the Senate, where a bill to cut US emissions by 2020 is stalled.

India was equally cautious.

"It's for the US to indicate how that will be reflected here in the negotiations, in terms of targets, and how those targets are going to be enforced," said Shyam Saran, India's special envoy for climate change.

Mr De Boer said the ruling was "like having a stick behind the door... something to fall back on" for President Barack Obama.

"I think that will boost peoples' confidence in the US coming forward with a number, and that number making it through," either as cap-and-trade or as regulation, he said.

The United States, as the world's number two emitter after China, is key to a deal in Copenhagen to break deadlock between rich and poor nations about sharing out the burden of curbs on greenhouse gas emissions.

- AFP/Reuters
Member Since: Settembre 30, 2007 Posts: 5 Comments: 13321
1198. atmoaggie 03:34 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting JFLORIDA:
Also you implied that proxy data involved a few temperature measurements and some tree rings.

That is total falsification.

Most of you on the denial side are committing the abuses you claim to have found "proof" of in the emails.

You should try to be honest.

I imply nothing...ever. Your mind might imply words betwixt those I write. I said only what I said. If anything I write is unclear, please, do, call me on it and ask for clarification.
Member Since: Agosto 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12461
1199. tornadodude 03:35 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
good morning all'

Member Since: Giugno 28, 2006 Posts: 22 Comments: 7816
1201. hurricanejunky 03:36 PM GMT del 08 Dicembre 2009    
Quoting Canesinlowplaces:
Press, the point is there is not anything necessarily legally wrong with what Al is doing (that I know of anyway). The point is these AGW people always say "follow the money". Well, I would say don't be naive. There's plenty who will profit, either through money or power, from the Cap and Trade type systems being proposed. It's just a matter of whose coffers are going to get filled up. Al owns interest in some of the carbon offset firms not to mention his book royalties. Again, not necessarily wrong, but if you can't see the underlying motive, well...I don't know what I can do for you. Like I say, I can see evidence to support both sides, but both sides have their motives and each is as greedy as the other - just a case of human nature that we must do our best to keep from getting out of hand.


Al Gore was talking about climate change and global warming back in the 1970's, long before he owned any interest in carbon firms, Google, book royalties or anything else. I think Al Gore has more integrity in his pinky than all of the fossil fuel moguls combined. At least he's making money off of a worthy cause not raping people (gas prices) and promoting pollution at the same time.
Member Since: Agosto 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2875

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About JeffMasters
Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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