Dry Slot

Time Passages IV
Posted by: Bogon, 06:37 PM GMT del 13 Febbraio 2012 +1
The Past

A year ago I posted a series of three loosely affiliated blogs, which shared the same title and which discussed different aspects of the same subject. The first one talked about two trees newly planted in my yard. Both trees are potentially very long-lived, but what is their life expectancy here on this suburban lot? How much time will they be granted? You'll be pleased to hear that those trees survived their first year. They've had a chance to set roots. This (and each subsequent) year's summer heat and drought should pose less difficulty for them. There was a third tree, an Eastern redbud, which did not fare so well. It got struck by lightning. Wife and I had to replace not only the fatally zapped sapling, but also the main circuit board in our television. Ouch!

The second blog presented a personal overview of time. How do we speak about time? How do we experience its passage? The third installment addressed cosmology: time considered on the largest possible scale.

So what brings me back again after all this, uh, time? Well, life goes on. We live and learn. This year I learned of some new developments in physics. I am not a physicist, but I try to understand how the world works. It is the same curiosity about the world that brings me to Weather Underground. I'm not a meteorologist, but I like to learn what I can about the weather.

As long as we're talking about the past, it might help to set the scene by reviewing some history. It has been nearly a century since Albert Einstein announced his theory of relativity. General relativity remains our best tested and most trusted model of the operation of the universe at the large scales observed by astronomers and cosmologists. The theory describes the interactions of space, time and gravity. Einstein's equations treat space-time as a continuum which warps and flexes in response to the presence of mass and energy. The word 'relativity' refers to the way the theory relates moving objects. Each object has its own point of view. According to the theory there is no fixed background or point of reference. If two spaceships pass in the night, the passengers on each one will tell a different tale about what they saw.

At the same time Einstein was developing relativity, other scientists were working on quantum theory. This theory accurately models the universe at the very small scale of subatomic particles. Quantum electrodynamics describes the forces of electricity and magnetism perfectly (insofar as we are able to measure). There are also good working theories for the forces responsible for radioactivity and nuclear power. The word 'quantum' refers to the discrete discontinuous appearance of nature when viewed at the smallest possible scales. It's like when you zoom in on your computer screen you see jaggies and dots, the individual picture elements, that make up the displayed image. According to quantum theory matter is comprised of a small number of elementary particles, each of which has a fixed mass. Energy is exchanged in little packets. Events proceed stepwise. From any point of view those events are likely to look a little blurry, because there are definite limits on how finely you can measure. The act of measurement affects the thing being measured.

Throughout the remainder of the 20th century these two theories were tested and applied. Both work very well within the domain for which they were designed. For any real-world situation, physicists are obliged to choose one theory or the other or compare the predictions of both. Nobody has figured out a way to combine the two. The theory of relativity does not extend to situations involving high energy and small scales, and there is no quantum theory of gravity. The math is too hard. The techniques developed within one theory break down when applied to the other.

The Present

For the last few days my mother has been battling an eye infection. Her doctor prescribed some ointment and an eye patch. Mom complains that, when she goes to pour a beverage, without proper depth perception she's liable to miss the cup and spill her drink on the counter.

Physicists, too, are tired of peering at the universe through one eye or the the other. They think their view would be a lot clearer with full stereoscopic vision. So when I say there is no quantum theory of gravity, I mean there is no complete theory. The last ninety years have not been wasted. People are working on a variety of approaches. Some start with relativity and try to quantize it. Some start with quantum theory and try to develop a background-independent version which includes the graviton.

One approach that gets a lot of press these days is string theory. The basic idea behind string theory is that elementary particles should not be portrayed as dimensionless points. They are granted a finite size, which makes some of the mathematics more tractable. I say 'some' of the math; there is much more to string theory that is very hairy indeed. String theorists propose a group of elementary particles that have not been detected and postulate several extra spatial dimensions beyond the three that we observe. In support of their theories they offer weak circular arguments such as the anthropic principle. Whenever reality threatens to contradict the theory, they spawn a new version. In fact there are a zillion string theories with no obvious way of picking a winner.

From my point of view they are all losers. String theory is a monster that devours talented young mathematicians. It sucks up lifetimes and hefty research budgets and leaves nothing to show for them. It provides a convincing model for how to parley government grants into academic careers, but it has done nothing to shed light on how the physical universe operates. There are no verifiable predictions of string theory.

There are numerous competing theories that seem more promising. There's Roger Penrose with his spin foam and tensors. There's Lee Smolin, who champions a theory called loop quantum gravity. These guys are results-oriented. Unlike string theorists, they manage to refrain from wandering off into fanciful realms of elegant mathematical complication. They'll be content if they can explain known particles in three dimensions.

Loop quantum gravity theory asserts that space-time is quantized, i. e. there is some minimal unit of volume out of which space is constructed. Thus, on a very small scale it would be possible to view space as a kind of fluctuating grid. An elementary particle would have a finite size. It could be no smaller than a block in the grid. The particle would be represented as a set of properties (e. g. quantum numbers) assigned to some region of the grid. Gravity appears as curves and waves in the grid lines.

Here are links to two presentations from Perimeter Institute in Canada. You can watch Renate Loll describe causal dynamical triangulation, and/or view Fay Dowker as she expounds on the theory of causal sets. You may have noticed that the last two theories include the word 'causal' in their titles. That's where time enters the picture: the sequence of cause and effect. In addition to quantizing space, these theories add the notion that all the little grid lines must be aligned timewise. The arrow of time is built in from the start rather than being sought as an emergent property. That turns out to be a significant innovation. Calculations become easier, and believable results follow. If you listen to the videos, you'll hear how several lines of evidence from thermodynamics, information theory, black hole theory, astronomy and cosmology converge to indicate that these people may be on the right track.

The advantage of such theories is that they can reproduce some of the observed properties of three-dimensional space (plus time) with a minimal set of assumptions. A disadvantage is that each theory only provides an incomplete and unwieldy model. It is not an equation. It is an algorithm for simulating space-time. It runs on a computer much like one of the weather models here at WU.

The Future

None of these theories is ready for prime time. Progress is slow, because the problems are hard. Only in hindsight is it clear what questions to ask in order to get the right answers. Will it be easier to work from the top down by quantizing relativity? Or will the bottom up approach, adding the force of gravity to an existing quantum theory, yield the prize? Will it become possible to translate a computer-driven algorithmic model into a concise set of equations? Will string theory ever be good for something practical?

The goal of all this theorizing is perfect binocular vision. Physicists want a Theory of Everything. It doesn't mean that they'll immediately be able to solve all problems and write down all possible knowledge in a book. It means that we humans will finally have a single unified theory that accounts for all known particles and forces. Far from being an end to science, it will make a great beginning for whatever comes next.

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1. shoreacres 03:00 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    
I'm going to have to leave it to the smart people to comment on your post. For one thing, I'm a little short on time (!) and for another, it's all well above my head. I do understand the story about your mother, though. Hope the eye infection clears up quickly.

In the meantime, how's this for a perfect Valentine vision? I'll bet they know something about string theory...

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2. Bogon 03:27 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    
Hiya, Shore. Thanks for the Valentine greeting! Thanks also for being willing to break the ice. Things were awfully quiet around here until you came along.

Congratulations on first post.

I look (askance) at those cats, and I can't help thinking about the article I just read over at the Atlantic Monthly courtesy of sp34n119w.

I will grant that the cats may know more about string theory than the string theorists. Most of what I had to say on string theory was a rant. Now that I have gotten that out of my system, I can say that there is at least one beneficial side effect of this research. A lot of physicists and mathematicians have been banging their heads against what must surely be some very tough mathematics. The effort has kept them off the streets, and all that practice may one day enable them to solve a useful problem, even if strings turn out to be a dead end for physics.
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3. BriarCraft 06:59 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    


An interesting read, but no profound thoughts coming from my head today. Hope you're having a good day.
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4. Bogon 08:35 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, BriarCraft. It's Valentine's Day. Today is more about feeling. Save the profound thoughts for later. :o)
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5. sp34n119w 09:18 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    
Mostly over my head, too, and I'll be searching for time to listen to those links.

String theory is a monster that devours talented young mathematicians. ... There are no verifiable predictions of string theory.

QFT!!!
What a waste of fine minds and resources. Of course, we could both be wrong, LOL

A big part of my animus towards string theory is that it is an entirely wrong use of the word "theory" and further confuses folks who struggle with difference between the everyday use of the word and the way it is used in science. Stoopid mathematicians messing around with words!

Those mathematicians are doing interesting math, though, and that along with the computer work involved has proven useful across disciplines. Okay, not a total waste of fine minds, then ;)

That's all I got.

Sorry if you're leery of cats, now - I know I am! LOL
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6. Ylee 09:19 PM GMT del 14 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, Bogon! At the moment, I'm happy that the internet connection at work is behaving itself! Long-winded thoughts are better reserved for the night shift, where demands on the local network are much less!

Happy Valentine's Day!
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7. Bogon 01:38 AM GMT del 15 Febbraio 2012    
Thanks for dropping by, folks.

sp - I realize that physics is not everybody's cup of tea. I've had this stuff on my mind, though, and thought I could expiate it and generate a new blog at the same time. I apologize that the entry came out so long-winded, and there are no pictures. How do you illustrate a theory? Maybe I could take a few hints from the science magazines.

One thing I appreciate about these two videos is that they show smart women talking science. Dr. Loll is one of the originators of the CDT theory. Back when I was in school, I had the feeling that the hard sciences were almost exclusively a male preserve. It seems we've made some social progress during my life, even if the ultimate physical theory remains out of reach.

Ylee - It has been a good Valentine's Day here in the Dry Slot. I hope Cupid finds you in good spirits, too.
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8. ycd0108 01:59 AM GMT del 15 Febbraio 2012    
Evening Bogon: Weighing in too.Always had trouble with "String Theory" and I still don't accept any "Big Bang Theory". I tend toward "Steady State" - maybe I'm just hopeful?
The implications these theories imply are difficult to swallow for those of us who attempt to pay attention to the "Real" world around us.
I have been trying to integrate Quantum Theory into my experience for some years. Phoned my BIL a while ago and asked him (Nuclear Physicist working with small cyclotrons) what I could imagine in that realm. He said:
"We take Quantum Physics out of the box when we need it and once we are finished with it we just put it back in the box."
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9. Bogon 05:34 AM GMT del 15 Febbraio 2012    
Good evening, ycd.

The Big Bang theory has a lot going for it. In one swell foop it explains: 1) the observed motion (red shift) of galaxies, 2) the relative abundance of elements (hydrogen, helium, lithium etc.), 3) the cosmic microwave background, and a short period of hyperinflation explains 4) the observed curvature (or lack thereof) in the universe. That's for starters. I may be leaving something out here.

Quantum theory is perhaps the most successful theory ever. It doesn't explain a great deal of what we see in everyday life, but it underlies what we see. Not long ago I read that photosynthesis, the special trick by which green plants take advantage of the energy of the sun, is a quantum process. If you've ever taken a chemistry course, you've probably seen a demonstration of electrolysis of water. Electrolysis operates on the familiar human scale. You can hold the apparatus in your hand. The reaction cleaves water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. It takes a lot of energy. Quantum trickery explains how plants can split water quietly, routinely and efficiently. They make their living doing it, and sunshine suffices for power.

These theories are stories that scientists tell about the world. You hear some people talk as if the theories are the world, that they are literal truth. That is not the right way to interpret them. They are only the best available working hypotheses. The practice of science challenges you to discover better stories of your own.

People have always told stories. It is what we do. For instance, there is a story that lightning is caused by Zeus flinging thunderbolts. If you accept this as a working hypothesis, you will be disappointed. You will never find Zeus. If you ask a scientist, he will tell you that lightning is a current of electrons. You can find electrons. You can learn how to make them jump through hoops. You can use them to operate computers and the internet and Las Vegas neon. That is the difference. The tales science tells are more useful.
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10. RobDaHood 07:13 PM GMT del 15 Febbraio 2012    
Stopped by your blog a few nights ago and decided my brain was too tired to make it through the page. Good job putting this together. Heavy stuff that's hard to put into words...which explains why we need equations!

I agree that accounting for time and gravity from the outset are crucial to a grand unifying theory of everything. Time can be quantified from a certain perspective, gravity on the otherhand...we all feel it's effects but can't agree on what it is.

I haven't finalized the "Multi-verse According to Rob" theory yet. I keep getting sidetracked by things like blogging! LOL

Anyway, interesting stuff. Glad to hear the two trees are doing okay!
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11. Bogon 12:28 AM GMT del 16 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, Rob.

I'm never sure, sometimes, when I write things, how other people are going to read them. And you're right, it's not easy. Doing this entry increased my respect for the writers who work for publications like Popular Science. It's one thing to think you understand a thing. It's something else to try to explain that thing to somebody else. That's ultimately why I took this on. I wanted to see if I could translate physics into English. I'm glad you think I did okay.

The introduction of time's arrow into a theory is sort of a big deal. In relativity there is no such thing. Relativity postulates a four-dimensional space-time continuum. There are arguably two things wrong with that. One is that quantum theory says the universe is not continuous. The other is that, while there is a time dimension, there is no sense of time passing. It's like one big static block, with all of time visible and no preferred direction of travel. In other words, the equations work the same forwards or backwards. To account for entropy or causality you have to make assumptions and invoke other theories.

When you have newly transplanted trees, you have to coddle them through their first year. Last year I was happy just to see them survive. This year I want to see some growth!
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12. RobDaHood 12:55 AM GMT del 16 Febbraio 2012    
Granted, time can be a variable, dependent upon perspective, but must still be accounted for as from a human perspective, the passage is indeed a sense of time passing, also, in Einsteinian physics time is very important as in speed of light...etc. so...

And we are trying to understand this from a human perspective.
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13. shoreacres 01:54 AM GMT del 16 Febbraio 2012    
Evening, Bogon,

I just woke the cat up, laughing at this:

"We take Quantum Physics out of the box when we need it and once we are finished with it we just put it back in the box."

I dont' know why that should seem flat funny, but it does. Not many laughs around these days, so I don't question them when they show up. I just laugh.

With V-Day gone and out of here, there's not much except Mardi Gras to worry about. Time to enjoy the lull for a while - February and March are pretty good months. The kids are still in school, there aren't many tourists on the move and there usually aren't many storms to worry about. We've got open windows and frogs tonight - or crickets, maybe. They've got warm temperatures and nice moisture, so they're happy. Hope you are, too.

ADD: And now I hear a little rain outside, too. Most of it stayed north of Houston today, so this is a real plus. Puts me in the mood for a good old song - like this one.

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14. Bogon 04:48 AM GMT del 16 Febbraio 2012    
Rob - I would say that human perspective is important. Maybe that means that my version of science is parochial. If there are space aliens out there, their view of how the universe works may be altogether different from ours.

On the other hand, I am inclined to believe that evolution has equipped us to see things as we do for a reason. A billion years of trial and error should yield a fairly robust product.

Shore - ycd's brother-in-law has a point. Quantum theory is not for the fainthearted. The quantum world looks very strange when viewed from the human perspective. The rules are different in the submicroscopic realm where quantum effects prevail. The things that happen there are counterintuitive and sometimes downright unbelievable.

A lot of ink has been expended by folks who philosophize about what quantum theory means. You may find some of what they have to say helpful.

Or not. I don't think it has to mean anything more than "this is how the world works, when you view it in a certain way". If you view your world in the usual way, it works as it always has.
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15. LowerCal 08:06 PM GMT del 16 Febbraio 2012    
....I am inclined to believe that evolution has equipped us to see things as we do for a reason. A billion years of trial and error should yield a fairly robust product.
I'd add the caveat, ".... in a very narrow context on the cosmic scale." An awesome intuitive grasp of Newtonian physics at the Earth's surface allows for amazing performance by NASCAR drivers but remember the difficulties of the first attempts of the Gemini astronauts to work outside their capsules.
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16. Bogon 01:55 AM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, Cal. You're exactly right. All of that evolution took place on the surface of one small planet.

Add to that the fact that there are obvious flaws in the overall plan. The appendix, the plumbing around the prostate gland, the fact that our retinas are inside out... Evolution evidently changed its mind a few times. So much for "intelligent design".

Evolution designs a critter to live long enough to reproduce. Once the genes are passed on, evolution is through. I'm thinking that the basic sensory apparatus — sight, hearing, smell, touch etc. — is pretty doggone critical, and (on average) it is going to become the best that it can be, given the needs and lifestyle of a particular species.

The astronauts' problem is that they were newbies. Imagine a baby born and raised in space. Do you think it would have the same problems?
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17. RobDaHood 02:05 AM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
I don't know.
I think that if aliens were physical creatures, as opposed to say, clouds of energy, that they would have a perspective similar to our physical beings.

Mosquitoes live long enough to reproduce. Man is a little bit different. Not necessarily smarter...just different!
:o)
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18. Bogon 02:52 AM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
Rob, I guess it depends on how you define 'smart'. In a generation or two we may be smart enough to fix some of the design problems that the human body inherits. Maybe future generations will have the vision of a hawk, the hearing of a bat and the olfactory prowess of a dog.

And maybe old guys like me will get to keep their hair. ~:o)

Then, maybe (depending on how you define 'smart'), we can talk about intelligent design.
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19. Ylee 03:04 AM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
I'm not sure that enhanced senses are a good thing, Bogon! Who wants to smell that beer-and-burrito belch from 100 yards away, or have someone overhear your whispered conversation from another room?
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20. Bogon 03:44 AM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
Hey, Ylee. I'm pretty sure I would like the good vision. I've never been sorry to see well.

The nose might take some getting used to. Or it might mean living out in the country instead of downtown.

As for the eavesdropping, people do that now, if they're so inclined. There are shops that will sell you all kinds of bugs, directional mikes etc. Not that I'm an expert myself, or even interested in such things.

To me the bad thing about superlative ears would be all the noise. Trucks, trains and airplanes. Teenagers. Dogs barking. How are you going to sleep at night?

Hmmm, do you suppose there is any chance that the world might actually get... quieter?
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21. RobDaHood 06:21 PM GMT del 17 Febbraio 2012    
Quoting Bogon:
Rob, I guess it depends on how you define 'smart'. In a generation or two we may be smart enough to fix some of the design problems that the human body inherits. Maybe future generations will have the vision of a hawk, the hearing of a bat and the olfactory prowess of a dog.

And maybe old guys like me will get to keep their hair. ~:o)

Then, maybe (depending on how you define 'smart'), we can talk about intelligent design.


Oh, man I hope not!
Have you seen the things they sniff?
:o)
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22. LowerCal 12:11 AM GMT del 18 Febbraio 2012    
Imagine a baby born and raised in space. Do you think it would have the same problems?
Good question.

Homo sapiens evolutionary prize is a brain so fantastically adaptable to an extreme range of environments and contexts. As you mentioned we've even come up with completely counter intuitive theories like Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and put them to practical use.

As for the baby born in space there is a problem with maintaining physical health in a weightless environment for longer than a few months.
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23. Bogon 03:45 AM GMT del 18 Febbraio 2012    
Rob - All I can say is, it doesn't seem to bother the dog much.

Cal - The health question is still out there, because nobody has lived in space longer than a few months. So far everyone who goes to space wants to return to the blue marble. That means they have to somehow maintain a level of fitness suited to a one gee world.

If we keep trying, sooner or later space tech will improve to the point that somebody will be willing to cross the high frontier. Not long after that there will be a child born, the first human baby ever to begin life off-planet.

Without good medical evidence to the contrary, I would bet that people who choose to live in weightless or low-gee environments will survive, but they could find return to earth extremely difficult if not life-threatening. The kinds of places that look relatively easy to reach and colonize are low gravity planets, moons, asteroids or artificial orbital habitats. So if humans are ever to become a space-faring race, that is most likely where we'll start.
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24. Bogon 02:35 PM GMT del 18 Febbraio 2012    
Last night I dreamed I was living in the universe of Things That Are Provably True.

I was very happy there. :o)
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25. BriarCraft 09:54 PM GMT del 20 Febbraio 2012    
Quoting Bogon:
Last night I dreamed I was living in the universe of Things That Are Provably True.

I was very happy there. :o)


Okay, so having an ever-curious mind, I got to wondering what, among the things we take as truth, are really, provably true. Certainly mathematical formulas, laws of physics. Anything in the scientific or engineering realm that doesn't have the word "theory" or "theorum" tacking onto it's name. And there are a lot of provable truths; more than this little mind can ever comprehend. But in the grand scheme of living my life in this world today, there's also quite a bit that I take for granted as true that may not be provable.

A search of "things that are provable" resulted in numerous links to sites about religion and the bible. Not what I had in mind. I did find an interesting discussion of science vs. culture which you might enjoy.

Segues being central to my being, I decided to search on "strange but true". Fun results. Here's something even my unscientific mind can get into. And they are definitely provable, you Bogon should be happy, too. Win-win!!

From Scientific American I found that:
identical twins' genes are not identical
fires can be extinguished with sound waves
nuclear-power-plant-with-radiation-sign
snake oil really is a cure for what ails you
drinking too much water can kill
the Earth is not round

And then there is a strange site called pctechnician which really does prove that nerds are a species unto themselves and they know some really strange provable truths, such as:
a crocodile cannot stick its tongue out
the cruise liner QE2 moves only six inches for each gallon of diesel that it burns
a 'jiffy' is an actualy unit of time for 1/100th of a second
it's impossible to lick your elbow
wearing headphones for just an hour will increase the bacteria in your ear by 700 times
crocodiles never outgrow the pool in which they live, so if you put a baby croc in an aquarium, it would be little for the rest of its life

In theory, you should be a really happy man about now, but only you can prove it. Or can you? Isn't "happy" an unprovable, subjective, emotional concept?

And here I started by thinking what a blah world this would be if we only had provable truths to deal with and how could you possibly be happy about that? I think I just proved myself wrong.
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26. shoreacres 10:37 PM GMT del 20 Febbraio 2012    
Quoting Bogon:
Last night I dreamed I was living in the universe of Things That Are Provably True.

I was very happy there. :o)


This really is funny. When I first read this, I thought it was a mis-spelling, and you were talking about living in the universe of Things that are Probably True. It made perfect sense to me that you'd be happy there. ;)
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27. sp34n119w 12:21 AM GMT del 21 Febbraio 2012    
Oh this has gotten fun! Wish I had kept up.
On babies in space - it looks unlikely to happen. The experiments done on chicken embryos (they took fertilized eggs and watched them develop) indicate that gravity provides input to the development process. That is, gene expression is influenced by gravity, among so many other things. The embryos were so grotesque that, iirc, they ended the experiment (killed the embryos) long before they would have hatched, if they would have, for humane reasons.
Since humans continue developing for years after birth it also seems a bad idea to take children into a no- or low-g environment, at least until we know for sure what the effect would be.
I'll look for the article on the chickens - really good.
ADD: I can't find the article where I thought it was. Maybe it was a dream. If it was, it came with really cool pictures! lol

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28. Bogon 10:10 PM GMT del 21 Febbraio 2012    
Howdy folks. Been out of town and off the internet for a couple of days. I'll get back to you later, I promise.
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29. Ylee 10:15 PM GMT del 21 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, Bogon! If a crocodile can't stick its tongue out, how could it ever count how many licks it would take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

Give that question to the string theorists! :)
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30. Bogon 05:43 AM GMT del 22 Febbraio 2012    
Yesterday I had another funeral to attend, the last of my uncles. I reckon it's that time of my life.

BriarCraft - In the real world, most of the provable stuff is mathematical or logical. As a teenager I remember being disappointed by geometry class. I thought it would be about shapes, but it was about proofs. Those sorts of proofs are possible only if you narrow down your discourse to a set of axioms and rules for codifying observations. That's not very interesting to me. Perhaps it should be, but to me it smacks of cheating. The universe is larger than that. So what if you can 'prove' something within your narrow little playpen? In 1931 Kurt Gödel 'proved' that these logical systems are inherently limited and therefore suspect. When I heard about that (much later, certainly not in geometry class), I went "Aha!"

In our world we talk about proving things in a court of law. It strikes me that all too often what we 'prove' in court is, who retained the most expensive law firm.

In general it can be hard to prove anything to everyone's satisfaction. One hears such phrases as "rules of evidence", but for any set of rules there are people who refuse to be bound by them. In any debate listeners are as likely to be swayed by emotion as by reason.

The salient thing about my dream is that it was dream. I don't feel that I have to explain anything about it, because it wouldn't make sense in the real world. I was happy because I was in a place with no doubt or subterfuge. Even the politicians were honest.

I appreciate all the effort you put into researching your marvelous comment. I look forward to following your links and considering your verbal pointers at the first opportunity. For now, until morning, I'm moving toward the bedroom. Perhaps I'll have another memorable dream.

shoreacres - Well, our world is full of things that are probably true. At least, I think so. Lots of other people's mileage seems to vary. Some folks claim to believe things that I know are probably — even provably — false. Some claim to disbelieve things that to me are patently obvious.

sp34n119w - Thanks for bringing news of those egg hatching experiments, even if you can't supply a link. It's entirely possible that terrestrial biology won't function in space. I'm no expert. I do know that certain processes, such as diffusion and convection, work differently or don't work at all without gravity (or equivalent acceleration). Those sorts of processes are likely to be very important in the development of an embryo.

Please note that I am not saying that space-born humans would be what we earthlings consider physically normal. If living in space turns out to be possible, it will surely be different in all sorts of ways, not all of which we can anticipate.

Ylee - I don't know about crocodiles, but I always bite. :oB
Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
31. Bogon 12:45 PM GMT del 22 Febbraio 2012    
Oh, yeah, almost forgot.

It snowed while I was gone. I called up Wife on Sunday night. She looked out the window and exclaimed, because she hadn't realized that the intermittent rain, which had been falling all day, had transitioned to white flaky stuff.

It did not snow where I was in southeastern Virginia. I saw meager remnants of snow on north-facing slopes along the roadside as my cousin and I drove home yesterday. There was no snow remaining anywhere south of the state border.
Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
32. sp34n119w 10:50 PM GMT del 22 Febbraio 2012    
Hey! Thought you'd all like this - the FTL neutrino results may have been due to a faulty cable. Which is just funny, on several levels.

So sorry about your uncle, Bogon. You've had a time of it, lately.
Member Since: Gennaio 27, 2007 Posts: 78 Comments: 4071
33. Bogon 12:02 AM GMT del 23 Febbraio 2012    
Thanks for the sympathy, SP. My uncle's death was expected, as such things go. We've had years to get used to the idea that he was failing. The blow surely fell hardest on my cousin and her family. We made the trip more to support the living than to mourn the dead.

A loose cable, eh?

New data, however, will be needed to confirm this hypothesis.

Certainly wouldn't want to go off half-cocked. :o)
Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
34. BriarCraft 06:01 PM GMT del 23 Febbraio 2012    
One hears such phrases as "rules of evidence", but for any set of rules there are people who refuse to be bound by them. In any debate listeners are as likely to be swayed by emotion as by reason.

More often when I was young, but still occasionally, I am one of those who refuse to be bound by rules. Especially seemingly arbitrary rules. I find it fun and often challenging to think outside the box.

I remember a semi-heated discussion with DH back when we were first dating. Well, not really. Actually, I don't remember what the discussion was about, but I do remember making a zinger that ended the debate and got us laughing. It also happens to be true. I announced rather emphatically, "That may be true for you, but I'm a woman and women are not constrained by logic!"

That might even be a provable truth. tee-hee!
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35. sp34n119w 08:44 PM GMT del 23 Febbraio 2012    
NASA's early quail egg experiments came up with really interesting results that did show problems in development without gravity. The article I was thinking of is more recent and covered a wider range of issues. The Chinese also did some chicken egg experiments, looking at protein expression (or something, mumblety, lol) on their recent flights. Squid embryos, too, have been sent to the ISS and, iirc, they did okay.
Sometimes I put links in a file instead of my faves so I'll go look there, at some point, and see if I can find it.
Doesn't matter - you see that there is much study to be done before humans start reproducing in low-g environments, which is all I wanted to say, with my usual amount of brevity.

Isn't checking for loose cables number 2 on the tech support checklist? After "Is the power on?" lol
And, yes, must run the experiments! The beauty of science - it may be slower than revelation but it tends to, eventually, get it right ;)

I like rules. I am entirely comfortable with accepting that, if I jump off a 30-story building (without support of any kind), I will most likely die as a result of the "rule" of gravity. Therefore, I don't go jumping off 30-story buildings. I wouldn't like living in a universe where gravity changes randomly. Well, that wouldn't even be possible. Rules are good ;)

I don't think one can compare physical laws to human-made laws. Some would like to, assuming that there are immutable laws governing society just as there are immutable laws that describe gravity (on a human scale). It's a category error. There are physical laws that describe the biology of humans which, in turn, may govern behaviors. That isn't the same as the laws humans make for them/our-selves regarding how we deal with those behaviors.
This ramble brought to you by: The Conscious Mind of the Procrastinator Commonly Referred to as "sp". Thank you.
Member Since: Gennaio 27, 2007 Posts: 78 Comments: 4071
36. RobDaHood 01:40 AM GMT del 24 Febbraio 2012    
Quoting Bogon:
I was in a place with no doubt or subterfuge. Even the politicians were honest.


Ahhh!
The stuff of dreams!
LOL

Hey Boggy!

Just dropping by with a quick hello.

Yes, I lost 2 uncles who were very special to me in the last few years. Sorry to hear that you have experienced the same.
As you say, it's that time in life.
:o(
Member Since: Settembre 2, 2008 Posts: 80 Comments: 26412
37. shoreacres 01:47 AM GMT del 24 Febbraio 2012    
Evening, Bogon,

Stopped by to see what was happening, and discovered you've had more "time passages" in your life. As you say, the journeys are for the living - I'm glad you were able to go to your uncle's funeral.

We have no rain or snow, but we have wind! A good bit of it, too. It started from the south last night and blew all night long. As I suspected, there's a front on the way. That's fine by me, except when it really cranks up I can't varnish. Ah, well. I'm used to it by now, but a little light grumping always seems in order.

I did find a word up above that I could relate to! Herewith: my science entry for the evening!

Member Since: Ottobre 4, 2004 Posts: 196 Comments: 14842
38. Bogon 02:31 PM GMT del 24 Febbraio 2012    
It was warm in the northern piedmont Thursday afternoon, after the sun burned through lingering morning clouds. My car has a lot of glass around the passeger compartment, so the resulting greenhouse effect had me running the air conditioner in February. The owner's manual says it's a good idea to cycle the AC occasionally during winter. Generally when I fulfill that requirement it's because I need the defroster.

BriarCraft - Can I be rational without being a misogynist? I want to come down on the side of reason. Emotion is real, but it is a subjective thing. Reason can be shared objectively. Ability to reason is a thing that distinguishes Homo sapiens from other animals. Reason is our species' sharpest tool.

I don't want to dismiss emotion entirely. One can reason about emotion, and one can emote while reasoning. Both mental aspects have their place and purpose. We do well when we strike a functional balance.

As for laws and rules, sp is right that there is a category problem. In English we use the same word, 'law', both for physical things like gravity and thermodynamics and for social things like murder and speeding. No enforcement is required for physical laws. They apply always and everywhere. You can't break them if you try. Man-made laws, on the other hand, are readily flouted. All it takes is an action. (I started to say "a decision and an action", but one can break a social law without knowing or consciously trying.) Enforcement is spotty and reactive. Penalties may or may not ensue, depending on lawyers etc. We really ought to have two different words for these very different concepts. It would save a lot of conflation and confusion.

sp - With respect to gestation in space, I've been wondering whether there is any difference between aquatic and terrestrial species. Aquatic organisms are effectively weightless in water, although on earth they do exist in a gravity field: bubbles rise, fluids convect etc. Among land species embryos manage to develop normally, floating within their eggs (or wombs), with random orientation to the gravitational field. If there is some critical developmental stage determined by gravity, it's not obvious. In space it's possible to create alloys of metals that won't mix on earth. Perhaps that effect is enough to mess up embryonic growth.

One of the beauties of science is that we needn't wait for revelation. If you want to see the light, flip a switch. =o)

Rules are good for providing structure. Physical laws define the shape of the universe. Man-made laws shape society.

The thing to remember about social laws is that they are, in a sense, arbitrary. Different societies implement different laws. Each society changes its laws from time to time. In that sense these man-made laws are hardly sacred. They are only guidelines meant to help keep us out of trouble. They should be regarded with a reasonable suspicion for both their quality and their quantity. They should be enforced with discretion. The goal is not to inflict punishment on individuals but to foment a healthy society.

Rob - Thanks for taking the time to say howdy.

On my side of the family I have a mom and one aunt left. After they go, it will be my generation's turn.



On Wife's side things are more complicated. I'll leave it at that.

shore

Don't forget to balance on your steady feet
Don't forget to listen to the ready beat

Oh-oh-oh!

That's a catchy physical theory from Mr. Buffett. Over on WordPress I noticed you were trying your hand at technology review. Haven't finished reading your latest yet, and it may be a day or two before I Get A Round Tuit. Gotta go see Mom this weekend.

Add: It took a while for the air to start stirring, but it's windy here today. At 11:00 o'clock the temperature was already 76°, and the forecast warns of 40 mph gusts, high fire danger and thunderstorms incoming. Sounds like Texas weather!
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39. Barefootontherocks 07:03 PM GMT del 26 Febbraio 2012    
Add: It took a while for the air to start stirring, but it's windy here today. At 11:00 o'clock the temperature was already 76°, and the forecast warns of 40 mph gusts, high fire danger and thunderstorms incoming. Sounds like Texas weather!

Was just checking to see how you fared with the weather Friday and I see you ain't been here!

Hope everything's going okay for you and yours.

Re: your blog entry... On space and time, I'm a skeptic. I don't believe they exist.
:)
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40. Bogon 05:08 AM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Hi, BF! I guess the short answer to your question is that we evacuated. We drove right through the squall line 200 miles west to Mom's house over the weekend. The visit was planned come rain or shine.

We returned home this afternoon. I was somewhat gratified to see that home is still here. There was a tornado watch in effect when we left.

Well, as far as belief enters into it, I believe in objective reality. Most of us can agree that the clear sky is blue whether or not we agree on a reason why. We have language to describe the passage of time, and we have even more language to describe motion from place to place. I'm not saying that the world exists exactly as scientists (or anyone else) describe it, but I think there is something real being described.

We may only be seeing the tip of an iceberg, or we might be making a mountain out of a molehill. Our shared perceptions and the deductions and inferences based on those perceptions are the best tools we've got. If those fail us, then there is no reason to believe anything or do anything.

The success that we've had with science over the last few hundred years suggests that we're onto something, that we can make headway against our own ignorance, that we can learn about the world we inhabit, and that the knowledge we gain is worth seeking. Within that body of knowledge time and space remain useful concepts.

I understand that, despite your skepticism, you hold a job. I assume you somehow manage to arrive at the designated place at the appointed hour.
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41. Ylee 09:16 AM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Unlike BF, I do believe in a symbiosis of space and time; the more time you spend at a buffet, the more space you occupy! ;-)

We too have daffodils blooming, the first time ever in February in my memory!
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42. Bogon 04:46 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
It's cool, rainy and gray in the north end of the Southeast this morning.

Outside on the lawn Wife's daffodils are putting on a show.



Does that mean it's spring?

Ylee, thanks for offering another example of a shared perception. See, the world does operate in a fairly reliable and consistent way. If it didn't, we probably wouldn't be here long enough to comment about it.
Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
43. BriarCraft 09:02 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Here's a bit of truth you might find provable.
Bock: best enjoyed on a cool, gray, rainy day. Or just about any day, for that matter.



Member Since: Giugno 21, 2004 Posts: 50 Comments: 2520
44. RobDaHood 09:18 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Well,

I didn't used to believe in reality. Thought it was all just a figment of my imagination. Then I realized that even I couldn't imagine anything as wacky as the world that we live in.

If reality is just a physical manifestation of our collective imaginations then some of you folks must be really messed up!

LOL
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45. Bogon 09:33 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Yep, BriarCraft, Red Oak would fit the bill. Might have to go buy a growler.

...although the next few days promise to be warmer and dryer. If I get a chance, I hope to slake my thirst at a new brewery opening in Hillsborough this week.
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46. RobDaHood 09:35 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Ha!
Be careful of "Mystery Brews", although it does sound intriguing!
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47. Bogon 09:53 PM GMT del 27 Febbraio 2012    
Rob, one reason I believe in some kind of objective reality is that it's too bizarre to be imaginary. Nobody could make this stuff up.

Not only that, but it's the same every dang morning. If people were making it up, they would surely change it up more. Some days the trees would be green, some days they would be pink, some days paisley. Nobody likes the same stuff every day. "Imagine greater."

Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
48. Bogon 03:13 AM GMT del 01 Marzo 2012    
We're having a cold front which is supposed to retreat later as a warm front. It's a bit rainish tonight, and it's supposed to be rainy again Friday. Meanwhile the prediction for Thursday is beautiful. Sunny, 75 degrees.

I think spring is here. The flowers are coming out. There have been things blooming (anomalously) since Christmas. Up to now has been early, but March 1st is open season. Frank Strait on Accuweather has given up on snow. The sun is coming back.

The bad news is that I really need to get out there and start working on the yard. The time has come.
Member Since: Giugno 26, 2008 Posts: 73 Comments: 2790
49. Barefootontherocks 04:30 AM GMT del 01 Marzo 2012    
Hi Bogon,
Kinda skimmed through this time. Interesting discussions.

Sorry to hear about your uncle. Nice that you could make it to his services.

Re: the space time thing.
We have language to describe the passage of time, and we have even more language to describe motion from place to place. Some cultures do not have words for time. No Tuesday. No three months. We needed them, mankind made these words and devised calendars. Can't get omn the Mayan 2012 bandwagon, as you can imagine, because the concept is meaningless to me. Maybe I just don't understand it. I can see day and night, cycles of moon even. Beyond that, only existence. We just "are."

As far as space. Yes, we do have words, and then there are some words we have not yet found, like those for the space-less existence. That will come as the science discovers more and more universal truths. Makes me think of "warp speed, Scotty" for some reason.

Alas. Yes. I do make it for work and other obligations that have a "time." I don't like it, though, and I'm usually late. lol people who know me well accept this or tell me to be somewhere half an hour before the appointed moment. Even then... I do try though. lol

Night. Hope it's a good one. Sounds like you're going to get some rain.
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50. Proserpina 02:25 PM GMT del 01 Marzo 2012    
Photobucket

I just realized that your uncle passed away. I extend my condolences to you and your family.
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51. shoreacres 02:39 PM GMT del 01 Marzo 2012    
Looks like you have a good start on that beautiful Thursday - 65 and clear is pretty close to perfection. Is that the yard I hear calling? ;)
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